September 07, 2005

Notes for Further Study

After last night's post, Reb made an interesting comment that I think is worthy of further study.  The comment was as follows:

As for the LOB... it is somewhat depressing. What concerns me about it is that our boys don't seem to be getting the hits off good pitching like they were last year. I don't mind leaving 17 on if we get some others to actually score.

That leads me to a few questions.  First, how are the Sox batters vs. the best pitchers?  The good hitting vs. good pitching mantra applies here; are the Sox a team that is only great offensively vs. the mediocre pitchers, but fold for the good ones?  Or can we dish it out on the best as well?  Also, how can we compare several things: the Sox vs. good pitchers and the Sox vs. all pitchers, the Sox vs. good pitchers this year and the Sox vs. good pitchers last year, and the relationship between our hitting, good pitching, and average pitching over both years.  I spent a little while today running some numbers from this year, and some of the things I'm seeing are fairly interesting.  Tomorrow, I'll do the same for '04, and see what comparisons can be made.

Posted by 12eight at 17:17:47 | Permanent Link | Comments (10) |
Comments
1 - If crunching pitching data, it would be interesting to see the numbers on the Sox vs. pitchers by experience. Anecdotal evidence this year claims that they're freaked out by rookie pitchers, a la McCarthy & Santana; I'm curious as to whether or not actual numerical evidence bears this out. Now as to the criteria you want to use for "experience", who the hell knows. (Comment this)

Written by: Kurt at 2005/09/07 - 21:29:41
2 - Well, it's an interesting point, made more so by the fact that this year, at least in the AL, young pitchers are dominating the league. Of the top 20 ERA's in the AL this season, 7 of them belong to pitchers younger than I am. About 3/4 belong to pitchers under 30.

Now, that's obviously not the same as 'rookie' pitchers. The thing I think drives people nuts is that these guys who are fill-ins can sometimes dominate the Sox. Unfortunately, that tends to extend to guys like McCarthy and Santana, who are actually top pitching prospects in their own right. I'm not surprised when a very strong young pitcher dominates the Sox; it's when the fill-in guys do that is really at the root of that. And frankly, I think that happens to every team just as much, if not more, than it does to the Sox.

Plus, it's one of those things that you only remember when it happens; we don't remember the young and/or nobody pitchers that the Sox torch. And there are plenty. (Comment this)

Written by: Andrew at 2005/09/07 - 21:40:12
3 - I was just going to write the same thing about us only remembering the times we get stifled by the "nobody" but we forget when we torch the crap out of other young pitcher - like Brandon League.

Without having the time to do the full research, I would say the Sox do pretty good. Just off the top of my head I would say the best pitchers this year are Halladay pre-injury, colon, buerhle, johan and either garland (first half much better than second), millwood (stats distorted by serious lack of run support), washburn or silva (both also a bit in the unsupported category).

Against these guys, I know Colon and Halladay each beat us twice (but I don't think Colon dominated, still losses are losses), Johan beat us (although last year he kicked our ass with something like 15 Ks I think right near the trading deadline), Buerhle and Garland, I think we beat each handily, Millwood got a ND in a game we came back and won, and we beat silva, but did not really pound him (the Friday game at Fenway during Mannygate).

So overall, I would say that the Sox do OKAY against the best pitchers (maybe 3.5 runs per game) and absolutely clobber the crap out of tier 2 pitchers - once you get outside the top 10 or so pitchers we feast and score probably at a 6.5 run per game clip. Not sure if the math on that works to get to the approx 5.8 runs per game number.

as for last year versus this - I would think they would be about the same since the offense has been pretty consistent.

Looking forward to the full research. (Comment this)

Written by: x at 2005/09/08 - 01:08:53
4 - See, this is why I make no claims to expertise in this sport. I make a completely unsupported statement, which is then convincingly debunked by multiple people. Not to mention that one of my case studies decides to let the Sox beat him up that night.

In other news, I was glad to see the Rays eking out another win. That is, until I flip the channel back and see Lou looking ever closer to killing himself on television. (Comment this)

Written by: Kurt at 2005/09/08 - 01:54:22
5 - Oh believe me, plenty of people who know their ball have made that claim. It's the law of expectations; you only notice things when you don't expect to see them. (Comment this)

Written by: Andrew at 2005/09/08 - 02:26:08
6 - I'm looking forward to seeing your research. My comment was based on casual observation and I have no idea if there's any supporting evidence. I just remember our boys getting an awful lot of hits off very good pitching, at least during their August/September tear last year. This year it seems like the very good pitchers are handling the lineup (Papi and Manny in particular) quite a bit better than I care for. (Comment this)

Written by: Rebecca at 2005/09/08 - 02:42:47
7 - Well, incomplete as it may be, I can say this regarding this year: Sox hitters have hit the 20 best pitchers in the AL (by ERA) better than the rest of the league by a decent margin, but that margin is not as wide as the one between the Sox in general and the league in general. In other words, Good pitchers do tend to lessen the gap between Sox hitters and the hitters in the rest of the league, but we still hit good pitching better than other teams.

The second part - whether we did it any better last year - is what I'll try and put together tomorrow. (Comment this)

Written by: Andrew at 2005/09/08 - 03:19:32
8 - That's it? I expected graphs, charts, stats, etc utilizing home/away, day/night, late and clutch splits, equivalent averages, VORP. A full Neyer-esque breakdown at a minimum.

At least my adhoc commentary attempted to remember specific games. What is going on? I would have thought that now with the thesis over you could pour yourself into this type of research. I'm assuming that lead in "incomplete as it may be..." is a sign that more is coming. (Comment this)

Written by: x at 2005/09/08 - 20:18:14
9 - Oh, there's a whole post in the works. Neyeresque is way too strong; I don't get paid for this shit. But there are some interesting numbers. I didn't get a chance to actually do anything on it today, as 'lunch with my grandmother' became 'lunch with my grandmother and then fixing things in her apartment' and I just got back. But tomorrow, there will be postage. Tonight, I'm going to Fenway. (Comment this)

Written by: Andrew at 2005/09/08 - 21:00:21
10 - Okay, I'm very relieved. Bring home another victory for us. And your Devil Rays are off to a good start in Ny 2-0. But then again quick starts are their speciality. (Comment this)

Written by: x at 2005/09/08 - 23:39:12
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