July 16, 2005

Is Rafael Palmeiro a Hall of Famer?

Last night, Rafael Palmeiro doubled into the left field corner, scoring a run.  It was the 583rd double of his 20 year career; the single he added in the next inning was the 1,814th that's left his bat.  Together, they were the 3,000th and 3,001st  base hits of Palmeiro's career, making him only the 4th player in major league history with 3,000 hits and 500 homeruns.  The others on that list?  Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and Eddie Murray.

So, is Rafael Palmeiro a Hall of Famer?

My gut reaction has always been to say no.  Admittedly, no one really asks me, and no one would care if they did, but now I have a blog, so no.  I don't think that Rafael Palmeiro is a Hall of Famer.  But a lot of people seem to, so I want to line up the arguments for and against, and see how they stack up.

Pros

Cons

  • There are 25 players who have had 3,000+ base hits in their career; 21 are in the Hall of Fame.  The ones who aren't all will be (or would have been had they not been cheaters): Rickey Henderson, Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn, and Pete Rose.
  • Only 8 players in the history of the game have hit more homeruns than Palmeiro; All of them - with the possible exception of Sammy Sosa - are either in the Hall or are shoe-ins.
  • Palmeiro ranks 13th all time in doubles (tied with Robin Yount).  Of the 12 ahead of him, 10 are Hall of Famers.  The other two are Cal Ripken and Pete Rose.
  • 11th all-time in Total Bases; among the ten ahead of him, only Barry Bonds and Pete Rose are not Hall of Famers.
  • Of Baseball-reference's 4 HOF monitor tools, only one has Palmeiro listed below Hall standards.
  • Palmeiro is among the best defensive first basemen of his era, and won 3 straight Gold Gloves at that position, in 1997, 1998, and 1999.
  • Has been in the Top 20 in MVP voting 10 times.
  • A 4-time All-Star.
  • Ranks 16th all-time in RBI's and 28th all time in Runs Scored.
  • Has never been on the disabled list and is among the more reliable players in the game. 
  • Has never dominated the league in the way one expects a Hall of Famer to have done, despite a long track record of moderate success.
  • Has led the league in an offensive category only 6 times.
  • Ranks only 63rd all time in SLG% and 68th all time in OPS.
  • Has a lower career OPS, among active first basemen, than Todd Helton, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Jason Giambi, Jeff Bagwell, and Carlos Delgado, and is only a few points ahead of Ryan Klesko and Richie Sexson.
  • Has never placed higher than 5th in MVP voting.
  • Baseball reference lists MVP shares, a metric that measures the weighted sum of a player's MVP voting placements.  Palmeiro's is 1.20 - 184th all time, behind such luminaries as Bobby Bonilla, Cecil Cooper, Joe Torre, Terry Pendelton, Cecil Fielder, and Pedro Guerrero.
  • High career totals with lower rate stats suggests a player who has been good for a long time, but never great.
  • A quick glance at the list of first basemen active during large chunks of Palmeiro's career includes names like Mark McGwire, Eddie Murray, Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, Jim Thome, Jason Giambi, Don Mattingly, and Will Clark.  Rafael Palmeiro's 6.94 RC/27 ranks 7th on that list.
  • Palmeiro has been selected for only 4 all-star teams during his 20 seasons in the major leagues.

So really, the argument for and against Palmeiro comes down to a simple question; are raw numbers more important than rate stats?

Raw cumulative numbers have long been considered the benchmark for Hall of Fame inclusion; 300 wins, 3,000 strikeouts, 500 HR, 3,000 hits.  The vast majority of players who have reached those plateaus are in the Hall, most of them deservedly so.  On the rate stats side, one could set plateaus for OBP and SLG at, say, .400 and .500 respectively; these are longer lists and more spotty, but for the most part, the players who fall into those categories are HOFers or will be.  Palmeiro, as can be seen, has been a very good player for a very long time, but has never been a great player, for even a short time.

Obviously, credit must be given to a player who has the type of stamina and reliability over a long period of time that Palmeiro does.  Over the 18 seasons in which Palmeiro has played in the majority of his team's games (including 2005), he has put up an OBP between .350 and .400 in 14 of them, an SLG between .470 and .570 in 9.  During his prime, he could generally be counted on to hit between 30 and 40 homers, drive in 100-120 runs, and collect 160-190 hits.  However, even in those prime seasons, he never finished higher than 9th in the league in OBP, and finished higher than 6th in the league in SLG only once.  In an era where strong offensive 1B's were the norm, Palmeiro was in many ways simply one of the 5 or 6 best 1B's in any given year, but for a far longer time.

A common comparison for Palmeiro is Fred MGriff, a man who put up excellent numbers, but likely falling short of Hall-worthy ones.  I want to put their numbers up, side by side; first, in their 5 best seasons, then in their careers (only full years).  In each case, I'll look at totals and average (by AB).  The first set of tables will look at counting stats, the second set at rate stats.

Rafael Palmeiro

Year

AB

BB

Hits

2B

HR

TB

R

RBI

1999

565

97

183

30

47

356

96

148

1995

554

62

172

30

39

323

89

104

2002

546

104

149

34

43

312

99

105

2000

565

103

163

29

39

315

102

120

1998

619

79

183

36

43

350

98

121

TOT

2849

445

850

159

211

1656

484

598

AVG

570

89

170

32

42

331

97

120

 

Career

AB

BB

Hits

2B

HR

TB

R

RBI

TOT

9809

1286

2843

553

534

5072

1575

1733

AVG

577

76

167

33

31

298

93

102

 
Fred McGriff

Year

AB

BB

Hits

2B

HR

TB

R

RBI

1994*

424

50

135

25

34

264

81

94

1999

529

86

164

30

32

292

75

104

1992

531

96

152

30

35

295

79

104

1990

557

94

167

21

35

295

91

88

2001

513

66

157

25

31

279

67

102

TOT

2554

392

775

131

167

1425

393

492

AVG

511

78

155

26

33

285

79

98

*1994 was, unfortunately for McGriff, a strike shortened year.
 

Career

AB

BB

Hits

2B

HR

TB

R

RBI

TOT

8383

1265

2402

424

478

4308

1305

1503

AVG

524

79

150

27

30

269

82

94

Those are remarkably similar numbers - so close that if you equalize McGriff's AB's to Palmeiro's, here's what you get:

 

Player

AB

BB

Hits

2B

HR

TB

R

RBI

Palmeiro

9809

1286

2843

553

534

5072

1575

1733

McGriff

9809

1480

2811

496

559

5041

1527

1759

So, by counting stats, these two are exceptionally similar players.  Palmeiro had a better career rates in hits, doubles, total bases, runs, and RBI (though for those last two, the fact that Palmeiro has played more seasons with excellent offensive teams must factor in), while McGriff held better rates in walks and homers.  But despite that, the only really large difference between these two stat lines - in fact, the only difference of more than 100 - is in walks, in which McGriff holds a significant advantage.  Of course, McGriff didn't have as many AB's in his career as Palmeiro, and the fact that Raffy got to the plate more often certainly has to factor in; if you have two players with the exact same rates in every category, except that one played two more years, the latter is the best player of the two.  But the point of this comparison is this; has Rafael Palmeiro really been that much better a player than Fred McGriff was?  It certainly doesn't appear so.  And is Fred McGriff a Hall of Famer?  Almost certainly not.

Now to throw an additional point into the discussion, here are the two players' rate stats in their career:

 

Player

AB/HR

BB/PA

RC/27

SecA

BA

OBP

SLG

OPS

Palmeiro

18.4

.112

6.94

.361

.289

.371

.516

.887

McGriff

17.8

.128

6.91

.378

.284

.377

.509

.886

All of this really causes me to ask: Are Rafael Palmeiro and Fred McGriff the same player?  By RC/27, BA, OBP, SLG, and OPS, they certainly appear to be.  McGriff is notably better in terms of his walk rate and HR rate, and decently better in his SecA.

Fred McGriff is not a Hall of Famer.  There are some that would argue this point, but I'm not one of them.  Really the only thing that could have saved him was collecting those 7 more homers, and even then I wouldn't vote him in.  Why, then, would I vote in Rafael Palmeiro, who has been - in nearly every important way - exactly as good as McGriff, but for somewhat longer?

The debate between rate stats and counting stats is a pretty long standing one, which I'm not likely to resolve here.  But in debates like these, sometimes it's good to extend the debate points to their extremes; let's say, then, that you have two players.  Each have exactly 3,000 hits, 500 HR, and equivalent amounts in every other counting stats.  Let's further imagine that these players put up the exact same season every year, and each had exactly 500 AB's and 650 PA's every year.  The only difference is that Player A played for 15 years, and Player B played for 20.  Their totals are the same, for their career; seasonal averages are very different, in that Player A averaged 200 hits and 33 HR, while player B averaged 150 hits and 25 HR.  Which of these players makes the hall of fame?  Their career counting numbers are precisely the same, except for their longevity, but their rate stats are significantly different.  Player A, for example, averaged a homerun once every 15 AB's; Player B once every 20.  Player A had a .400 BA, Player B a .300 BA.  Without actually creating and plugging in numbers, we can agree that all the rate stats would show a similar difference.  These players have equal career numbers, but Player A had far better seasonal performances.

This dynamic can be reversed as well, with similar results.  If Player A and Player B have exactly the same career rate stats, and had those same stats every single years across equal numbers of AB's and PA's, except Player A played for 20 years and Player B played for 15, Player A is a superior player over his career due to the 5 additional years, but on a yearly basis, they are exactly the same.

So, both yearly performance and longevity matter, which is why Palmeiro is a better ballplayer than Fred McGriff.  But in this case, the difference is not very large; Palmeiro has had enough additional AB's to reach the milestones that McGriff did not.

So after all this, I'm still on the fence.  Rafael Palmeiro was not ever a dominant player.  He was a steady player, over a long period of time.  He has never been the best 1st baseman in the league, he has never been an MVP, he has never dominated.  He has been left off All-Star teams far far more than he has been included on them.  Though his counting stats are generally in the top 20 all time, his rate stats are far far lower.  He's created fewer runs over 27 outs than 6 other 1B's who have played in the last 20 years.  Basically, every baseball instinct I have tells me that Rafael Palmeiro is not a Hall of Famer.  But I'm still on the fence, because those milestones do still mean something.

So, were I a member of the BBWAA, I would not vote for Rafael Palmeiro... at first.  He would not appear on my ballot in his first year of eligibility.  Maybe his second, maybe his third.  Maybe never.  The thing I love about the Hall of Fame in Baseball is that it remains - with a few notable exceptions - a very rarefied group.  Only the very best of the very best belong, and I cannot say in all seriousness that Rafael Palmeiro is among the greatest players to ever wear a Major League uniform.

What do you think?

Posted by 12eight at 18:03:03 | Permanent Link | Comments (9) |
Comments
1 - So what would Raffy have to do to get your vote? Hit 600 home runs? Collect 3500 hits? The simple truth is, EVERY SINGLE eligible player who has done what Palmeiro has done, is in the Hall. Electing him wouldn't set a precedent, not electing him would. (Comment this)

Written by: Shawn at 2005/07/17 - 01:06:04
2 - I think in response to the first comment, Raffy couldn't do anything; in other words, he's missed his chance. I lean away from electing Palmiero to the Hall. For me, the most compelling fact is the MVP voting: can you really elect someone to the Hall of Fame when they played 20 years and were _never_ considered in the top 4 players in their league? It's true that not electing him would set a precedent, but I consider that irrelevant. It's not like the Hall of Fame has some obligation to let in players once they've hit a certain point or reached a certain stat.

For me, the Hall of Fame is about the all-time greats, the players who you'll want your kids to know about when you introduce them to the game of baseball. Does Rafael Palmeiro qualify as such a player? In my mind, no. (Comment this)

Written by: Terry at 2005/07/17 - 03:27:39
3 - Shawn, the statement "EVERY SINGLE eligible player who has done what Palmeiro has done, is in the Hall" is incorrect. Every player who has done two of the things Palmeiro has done is in the hall. Both of those things are important, sure, but they're not all important. To me, a great ballplayer is made through longevity and rate stats. Palmeiro played a long time, yes. But a lot of players have played for 20 years and not made the hall, and his rate stats are, frankly, if not pedestrian than at least not GREAT for his position in his era. What has Rafael Palmeiro done that sets him apart from any number of 1B's that have played in the last 20 years, aside from playing for a longer time? Virtually nothing. And at least in this case, the MVP and All-Star voting back me up. Rafael Palmeiro has never been a dominant player. The Hall is for dominant players. To me, that's the issue. Not two arbitrary numbers, but dominance.

Terry - I can't quibble with that statement. (Comment this)

Written by: Andrew at 2005/07/17 - 04:51:25
4 - I'm on the fence too, but I've never bought the argument about him never being the most dominant 1B in the league (I think Neyer made this a few years ago, when he hit 500 HR). The last 10-20 years have seen some incredible sluggers playing first base -- it may be the most stacked a single position has been in any period in baseball history. (At least one of those 1B, I might add, was almost certainly a 'roider, denying Palmeiro and others chances to play in All-Star Games, lowering his MVP votes, etc.)

I probably wouldn't vote for him either, at least at first, but if he gets elected, I won't be at all upset. He certainly wouldn't be the least deserving in the Hall. (Thanks, Veteran's Committee!) (Comment this)

Written by: Earl at 2005/07/17 - 14:28:21
5 - I put a bit of this on over at GYS. Based on other guys that are in the Hall, I think Raffy is a Hall of Famer. And I think there may be enough of this discussion about him that he doesn't make it on the first ballot.

I get the sense that Andrew is very traditional in his views and I think that I agree with him in many areas. But I recognize that others will not always agree with these hard line stances. So, if the hall has room for guys like Sandberg, Molitor, Kirby Puckett, Robin Yount and Gary Carter, then I say by all means let Raffy in. Hell, our beloved Yaz was a HOFer based on his longevity, which is largely what Raffy is criticzed for (i.e., that he has put up good numbers over a long period of times, but never really had great numbers.)

And don't get me wrong. I love you YAZ. But he was a .285 hitter. Only hit more than 40 HR once (which was a huge deal back then, agreed). And I think he only hit 30 HR 4 times. So I have to disagree with the comment that he was one of the greatest OF of his time. There were many other guys that were superior. Maybe not in 67, but over the course of their (shorter careers). Guys like Killebrew, Frank Robinson, Aaron, Kaline, Pete Rose (sort of) Mays, Clemente, Frank Howard, Stargell, Reggie, Jim Rice (don't even get me started on this one), Colavito early in YAZ's career, hell even Mantle was still productive in 60s.

So Raffy and Yaz both to be are guys that put up great numbers over a long period of time. But were never the most feared player in their league, with the exception of YAZ in 67. One year. Frankly YAZ had 5 really good years. 63, 67(!), 68 (one of only two players in AL to bat .300), 69, 70. And his 5 best averaged together are just about career averages for Jim Rice.

well I have completely digressed from Raffy to Yaz. It was that line that he was one of the greatest OF of his time. Sorry.

 (Comment this)

Written by: x at 2005/07/18 - 23:35:22
6 - I disagree with that assessment of Yaz prety heavily, and here's why; over the seasons in which he put up his best numbers - let's isolate a 6 year stretch, say 1965-1970 - Yaz put up OPS+'s of 156, 120, 195, 171, 137, 178. Over Raffy's best 6 years - I guess 1990-1995 is the most impressive one OPS+ wise, we get 131, 155, 124, 150, 136, 142. Yaz's average in thse years is about 160, equal to the highest single season OPS+ Raffy ever recorded (in 1999). Raffy's average in the selected years is about 140, lower than 6 Yaz seasons. Yaz led his league in OPS 4 times; Raffy has been in the top 5 twice. Yaz played in a totally different era in his prime, when raw offensive numbers won't look impressive compared to today, but look damn good compared to a league. Yaz was absolutely one of the greatest OF's - one of the greatest players of his time. He stood out in the late 1960's and early 1970's, without question. Raffy never really has.

I also find it interesting that you think of my analysis as 'more traditional', because as far as I can tell, every single pre-Palmeiro HOF voice has basically just said '500 HR and 3000 hits', the absolute most traditional entry-points into the Hall I can think of. Well, the 500 HR thing is going to start taking hits soon. Sosa? Frank Thomas? Jim Thome? Gary Sheffield? Of those guy, I'd put Thomas in the Hall, and I'd consider Sheff. And that's it (and the Sosa conversation... is for another time). So, I'm traditional in that I want the Hall of Fame to be for th truly great players, but in my selection criteria I'm not very. I want guys who were genuinely great players, either due to a few prime seasons or due to longevity, or both. Raffy has the longevity, but he was never really great. Was he? Can you look over his numbers, especially considering the offensive era he played in and the position he played, and tell me this guy was ever head and shoulders above the rest? Because I can't see it, no matter what totals he's gotten in a couple cumulative stats.

Put this way, Mark Grace had 2,445 career hits, in 16 seasons. Let's say he played 5 more (Palmeiro is in he midst of his 21st season) and collected those 555 more hits. An average of 11 a year. Is Mark Grace a HOFer because he has 3,000 hits? Keep in mind those last 5 years would likely have dragge down his career rates. If not, why not? H's got the 3,000 hits, and eeryone who's ever done that - aside from Rose and the guys who aren't eligible yet - are in.

Basically, if you can tell me that Mark Grace - had he played out 5 more years at a sub-par performance level just to get 3000 hits, is a HOFer, tha you can put Raffy in basd on the strength of those to arbitrary categories. Otherwise, maybe we need to rethink our obvious categories. (Comment this)

Written by: Andrew at 2005/07/19 - 00:02:10
7 - Lots to go over here. First with Yaz, I was not trying to just single out Yaz vs. Raffy. I had a little trouble with the statemet that he was one of the greatest OF (now players) of his time. I named about 12 guys up there that, I think, were better than Yaz - I will take out Rose and Rice for different reasons, but the remaining guys were just more feared hitters. And yese Yaz did have the standout years that Raffy lacked.

I think Rice is more deserving of the Hall than Yaz.

On the whole Grace issue - I think someone like him or Julio Franco if he keeps going or whoever, will eventually challenge the thinking on 3,000 the way 400 was and now 500 will be. And no they are not HOF players.

By traditional I'm not exactly sure what I meant by that - it was/is a compliment. I would like to think of myself as the same. I'm sure you agree that Don sutton should not be in the hall b/c he won 300 games.

But put this another way - is there anyone in the hall with 3,000 hits or 500HR that you do not think belongs in there? And Raffy has both (which sosa, thomas, sheff and thome likely will not). So while the perception is that it is automatic, is it really? Or is it that the players that have gotten to those milestones were HOF material.

So who is the worst player with 3,000 hits? Yount? Ripken? I guess I would say Molitor.

And for 500 HR - Raffy? Sosa? McGwire? Griffey Jr?
 (Comment this)

Written by: x at 2005/07/19 - 01:08:39
8 - But the difference between Yaz and Palmeiro - and I know, that wasn't the comparison you wanted to set up, but I think it's useful - is that Yaz was a dominant player in his prime. He had the longevity, which I don't want to downplay, because a player who can play longer at a higher level is very valuable. But he was also dominant during some of that stretch, and try as I might, I can't find a period of Palmeiro's career where I coul say this guy was one of the ten best hitters in his league. I can find that for Yaz in he late 60's, but Raffy... no. Some of that is a product of his era, but there were definitly guys who you can say were dominant in that period, so I don't accept that as an excuse for Raffy. So, both dominance and longevity have their place, but to me dominance is more important. If a guy plays 10 amazing years and then suffers a career ending injury, if he was that dominant, then fine, he's in (exhibit A: Sandy Koufax). Meanwhile, if a guy is just good for really long time - Molitor, Yount and yes, Palmeiro - I'm less sure. Yount I'm on the fenceon, but the more I look at Molitor's numbers the more I'm inclined to say no. Yount at least played the vast majority of his games at short, where at the tme there were very very few great offensive ballplayers. Molitor played more games at DH than anywhere else.

So, as for the last question, Molitor's a 3,000 hit guy whose placement in the Hall I'd question. Dave Winfield. This may be heresy, but Al Kaline and Eddie Murray are questionable to me as well. On the 500 HR front, there's no one that I wonder about yet, but as HR totals go up, there almost certainly will be. If McGriff had gotten to 500, would anyone vote him in? And if they did, then no way. Guys who might get there in the next few years or are active with 500 now, the only one I wonder on is Sosa - to me, Griffey remains an HOFer, and Bagwell should be. Palmeiro, I've obviously questioned.

Baseline, yeah these nice even cutoffs are fun to hoot for, but they shouldn't be accepted as official lines of entry at all. And if we can say that, then the ability to question Raffy increases. To me the question remains, was he one of the most dominant players of his era? And the answer, to me at least, remains no. (Comment this)

Written by: Andrew at 2005/07/19 - 02:30:53
9 - Well I think Kaline is getting the short end of the stick in hindsight. He was pretty damn good. And did not need the 400th HR (although he had the 3,000 hits) to make the hall. Compare him to Clemente, and granted Clemente had the tragedy, but Kaline is superior in a number of areas. Sure Clemente had the reputation as a great defender, but Kaline was pretty decent.

Murray, yeah I guess he would be the closest on the 500 (and maybe on the 3,000). But he did terrify the AL in the early 80s. Back when 30 HRs actually was an accomplishment.

I think we actually agree on all this, because if I had to vote, I think I would say no. But the precedents have been set. Voters (and their patters) have been fairly consistent or at least easy to predict. So if the sole vote belonged to me, I would agree that Palmeiro is no, and there would have been a number of no votes in the last 10 years:

Gary Carter
Kirby Puckett
Robin Yount
The laughable Don Sutton
Molitor for sure
And Phil Neikro

And Jim Rice would be in.

Hope the Sox get back on track (I too think they will). And I sure Hope you feel better (maybe Earl can help, he is a Doctor, sort of). (Comment this)

Written by: x at 2005/07/19 - 04:36:27
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